The Problem with Women’s Cycling: Part V
Are we really up to Part V now? (By the way, do you like how I keep switching from Roman to Arabic numerals?)
In case you’ve missed it, we hit an all time record high for the number of comments on a blog entry here at kerry-litka.com with our recent post “The Problem with Women’s Cycling“.
My follow up pieces haven’t garnered nearly as much attention or controversy, and I don’t know what to make of that, but whatever. Moving on…
From a strictly physiological perspective, cycling is lagging behind other women’s sports. I think perhaps it may be related to the lack of funding for athletes, but it’s sad to see that women’s cycling has not risen to the levels of intensity and quality of competition that other women’s sports have achieved. The best way to analyze this is through actual science and research and not subjective measures, so I will do my best here to clarify things.
Using the Olympic Games as a model of the acceptance of a women’s sporting event into the mainstream (regardless of how you feel the Games rank in order of importance for international events, they do serve as a bench mark of the legitimacy of a sport), we can analyze the progression of women’s cycling since it’s acceptance into the Olympic Program in 1984. Present at those games, but not on the podium, was one diminutive 26 year old French woman by the name of Jeannie Longo. At our most recent Games, Longo was again present in the field, participating in her 7th consecutive Olympic Games, and finished in 4th place in the Individual Time Trial event, just 2 seconds short of a medal.
That doesn’t happen in other sports. For a more direct comparison, lets use the Marathon event for women. Also making it’s inaugural appearance as a women’s sport at the 1984 Games, it featured 27 year old Joan Benoit Samuelson as the first ever female winner of the Olympic event. She’s still a competitor in the Olympic marathon trials and raced to a 2:46 qualifying time for the 2008 trials, two minutes under the Olympic B standard. Joan is one of the best female marathoners of all time and possesses a physiology that is perfectly designed for running. So, it’s no surprise that at age 50 she is still competitive with the best in the world…but in the 08 trials, she finished 90th, indicating that although she can still run well under 2:50 for the marathon, there are a lot of women in the US who can run faster – and given that twenty four years have passed since her gold medal performance that set the standard for the Olympic event, we expect the quality of the field to evolve, to deepen, to improve. That’s normal. So although the actual times have not dropped much since 1984 – a comparison of the top 10 finish times from the 1984 Olympic Marathon are not significantly different from the times at the most recent Olympic games – the difference between then and now is that now, in the US alone, we have over 260 women capable of running under the Olympic qualifying time of 2:48 – an indication that the depth of talent in women’s marathon running has grown exponentially in the last twenty five years.
Now let’s go back to cycling – like her running counterpart Joan Samuelson, Jeannie Longo is still very competitive in her sport at the elite level. And like Joan, she still competes in the Olympic qualifying events. Like Joan, Jeannie possesses a physiology that makes her perfectly suited for an endurance sports event. Unlike Joan, she continues to beat up on women twenty five years her junior and win medals at international and Olympic events.
You have to ask yourself, why is that?
In terms of straight up physiology, these women are nearly identical twins. But, if we put Joan in her prime, with an American record of 2:21:21 and ran her against today’s women, she would not easily walk away with a medal – she could still win, but she’d have a lot more competition than she had in 1984. Paula Radcliffe’s world record of 2:15:25 has stood since 2003, but it’s still significantly faster than Joan’s 1984 medal run. And although Joan’s PRs would put her in the running (no pun intended) for many wins, the reality is that the quality of the field in the current events is considerably greater than it was in 1984. The number of women capable of running under 2:48 is greater, and thus the quality of the competition improves. Sports like track and field have a nice way of raising the bar – by lowering the qualifying time standard gradually, they essentially raise the level of expectations of the athletes.
I first thought of this last night when I was watching the women’s Snowboard Cross event in the Olympics. Snowboarding is a relatively new sport, and even newer to the Olympics. As with any new sport, there is definitely a performance curve for the athletes, and we generally see that curve slope upward quite a bit in the sports’ infancy. The women competing in the event were all certainly capable of riding down the technical Whistler course, but the difference between the top women and the rest of the field was undeniable – Lindsey Jacobellis and Maelle Ricker were clearly at another level compared to the women they defeated in the earlier rounds. Forget about the final outcome of the race, if you watch Jacobellis and Ricker descend the mountain, they did so with noticeably more control and power than the rest of the women. An examination of the men’s event showed a much tighter race in each heat, indicating that the overall depth of talent among the men’s field is greater, and that the men in the competition are pretty evenly matched. I predict that any coach with half a brain will examine these races, watch the video, and come to the conclusion that in order for the rest of the female snow boarders to win, they need to up their game. They need to get stronger before they can get faster, and as those changes occur, we will see less variation in the ability levels of the world’s best snowboarders, and over time the quality of the women’s fields will increase.
Back to cycling -the quality of the riders at the top of the peloton is very good, and has been consistently good for quite some time. The problem is that depth of talent isn’t there. For every Nicole Cooke, Judith Arndt, Kristin Armstrong, Amber Neben, Ina Teutenberg, etc…well…there are several more women who lack the ability and physiology of those at the top and are just there to fill the fields. Unlike marathon running, which has only increased the number of talented athletes over time, cycling has not done a very good job of recruiting new talent or developing the current crop of riders. The result is that someone like Jeannie Longo continues to dominate the sport at age 50, continues to win major events. The other 15 or 20 women who challenge her are of equal ability – the problem is the remainder of the “pro” peloton is not at the same level as the top 20. If racing at the international level is possible simply by showing up, if no standards are in place and riders don’t need to meet even a minimum level of physiology to compete, then how can we expect the depth of talent to increase?
In an article titled “The Science of Cycling” (Faria et al, 2005), variables related to endurance performance are examined as they relate to values obtained from a variety of physiological assessments. Among elite/professional male cyclists, VO2 max, power to weight ratio (w/Kg) and peak wattage are strong predictors of performance. For women, VO2 max and w/Kg are less likely to predict success. In a 14 day stage race, VO2 max is a predictor of success among women, as it is for men.
So, what does that mean, exactly? It means that for a woman to win a major stage race comparable to the Grand Tours for men, she absolutely needs to have a high VO2 max, in addition to a high power to weight ratio and a high lactate threshold. These are the same necessary measures required for success among men. However, in terms of general performance, that same high VO2 max that is required for entry to the pro men’s peloton is not necessary for women. Why isn’t it necessary? Because the depth of talent is not the same. For a guy to be competitive, he absolutely must have a VO2 max over 70 ml/kg/min and a power to weight ratio over 5 w/Kg (as well as a high lactate threshold). The women can be successful without those physiological requirements. That doesn’t mean that they can win – it means they can compete.
If the men’s peloton had only 15 guys total who possessed those characteristics, and the other 150 or so riders were sub elite in terms of physiology, they would still be able to compete. Would they win? No. But they wouldn’t be getting their ass handed to them either.
But men’s cycling has evolved over time and the result is a peloton deep in physiological talent, with exceptionally high standards for competition. Women’s cycling needs to ascend to that level before it will be as competitive and entertaining for the fans as the men’s race is.
So how do we solve that? I think the AIS model is ideal. Australia consistently produces top female cyclists, despite having a relatively small total population. USA Cycling is a prime example of How Not To Develop Talent. Their women’s program is absymal. They hold a “talent identification camp” once every other year, and select riders from the existing peloton.
Yeah, that makes sense. Pick the women who are currently racing and whose results are documented, test them, and discover that they really don’t have what it takes physiologically to make it at the elite level. Smart. Why not recruit from other sports? Why not find the women who were cross country skiers, hockey players, speed skaters, hell, even figure skaters, and bring them over? We see a lot of crossover ability in those sports, but if the injured distance runner or former cross country ski racer are never exposed to cycling, how do we know if they don’t have what it takes?
I don’t know what drives women to take up the sport, but the bottom line is if we allow the athletes to self select their participation, we’re missing a larger crop of potential talent. Until we have a pool of available athletes so deep that we have to resort to a physiology test to decide who to send to World’s instead of a popularity contest, we’re only perpetuating our existence in this shallow end of the talent pool.
you’re not wrong. i’ve been defending this for a long time. i’m not sure what else to do but ride really fricking hard and learn to be smarter.
Another interesting piece, although it’s possible to overstate Longo’s modern performances. Although she clearly is phenomenal for her age, she hasn’t won any major events outside France for several years that I can think of. The Beijing time-trial performance was aided by the non-participation of some riders and sub-par performances from others, although she would have still done well anyway. Her continued dominance of French domestic cycling doesn’t speak well for that, though.
Also, I know you were critical of the Liz Hatch article in your first part of this series of posts, but she did make a good point about Emma Pooley’s win at Montréal; if a man had done that, it would be incredible, if a woman does it it’s an example of why women’s cycling is crap. Likewise, Bernard Hopkins continues to be one of the world’s best boxers at 45, which although not Longo’s age is a pretty fine example of longevity. And that’s what it’s appreciated as – whereas any time women are in the same boat it has to be roped into a grand narrative about women’s cycling being rubbish. I’m not saying you don’t necessarily have a point, but it’s worth bearing in mind.
Again interesting material in many ways. So what would happen if we wound the snowboarding clock on 20 years ? Would the fields become as competitive as those for the men ? I think we are back at the reward/effort ratio your first piece touched on, but another aspect of it.
If women snowboarders can see a similar long term career as the men, in which they get quality recognition both in terms of magazine coverage and consequential endorsements that bring with it financial rewards, then the answer is “yes”. Women’s road cycling has been going longer but has not made the progress it should have. Why ?
The rewards are throttled out of the system by the men’s control of the sport.
That control comes in two parts, both intertwined and each dominant at different times in different instances.
Part 1 – The press –
the Jeannie Longo case is excellent. She remains the best rider in France. I took the major French cycling magazine for a couple of years. Nothing about the women’s scene. In 24 issues, tiny, tiny coverage and the one rider who garnered 90% – Longo. I have taken the main Aussie cycling title for longer. There is nothing like equality but even so, I would estimate they had at least 2 quality stories each month about the female side of the sport and some pictures. Slightly behind the Aussie mag, in terms of coverage would be the Italian monthly mag. Each of these had about 50 times the coverage of the women’s side of the sport that the French mag had. The British magazines are comparable with the French titles. My argument would be that French Women’s cycling is going nowhere because the French Federation and their press system don’t want it to. I am not saying that decision is deliberate, indeed the intent might be the opposite, but the execution creates the factual result. There is no reward available to support the hard miles on the slog to the top. Longo made the hard miles years ago, sucks up what little publicity there is and there is no oxygen left for anyone else. I have been holidaying in France for longer than I care to remember. It is a fantastic country and I love it there. Around 14 years ago L’Equipe would do a daily report with picture(s) on the women’s Tour. Excellent report with editorial comment. For the last 10 years – a token results list, at best. Would you spend your company’s revenue on sponsoring anything to do with a women’s race ? They have dropped below the critical mass requirement and it will not be easy to get back to where they were 14 years ago.
Part 2 – the federations and UCI –
Lots of moves are being made in the right direction and there is a lot of good will out there. It is just not being directed quite right. Bring in equality at the Olympic track events but then don’t start the 100m sprint on the 50m line for the women, alongside the heels and handbag stand. There is no reason on the planet why the women’s pursuit cannot be 4,000m and 4 up (and the WC individual pursuit 4,000m). The team sprint needs to be 3 up. (The women’s WC sprint TT needs to go from 500m to 1km). The UCI should drop their limit on 9 days for tour lengths and the length limits on individual days. They should allow equal team sizes to the men in the Olympic Road Race. These are all obvious tools the press seize on as an excuse for token coverage. If the Federations really wanted to be pro-active, then insist that top ranked UCI races had to have a women’s race on at the same time. You don’t get “men only” triathlons. Don’t attempt to build Rome in a day, start with the 1 Day events for the first 3 years and then introduce Tours. I think that was part of the problem when they started the women’s TdF in the 1980′s. There just was not the race infrastructure around the Tour to enable it to be anything other than a tedious procession. They tried to put the pinnacle in place without any of the supporting infrastructure present. By the time the infrastructure was complete, Org TdF had long since sacked the idea of running a concurrent Women’s Tour. (My personal view is that women’s road cycling is sliding back from a peak that was achieved sometime in 2002 – 2008).
The future –
I just don’t think Women’s road racing offers the reward to make the fields deep. Even the grants offered by the AIS are only enough to keep the girls in the frame for 1 or 2 Olympic cycles. There is no living wage to be made. To get to the top you have to slog yourself into the ground, like the male equivalent. A male journeyman can do far less, have far less pressure and get magazine adulation and consequent financial reward far more easily. Even get to the top and what reward does a Nicole Cooke get ? A kick in the teeth so aptly described by the writer in “part II”. [OK her problem is that she is in the UK and alongside France their press (& Federation ?) is "men only", in a manner not acceptable in Italy or Australia].
Will it evolve better. No, it will not. It went on a 20 year trajectory from the 1984 Olympic introduction and has peaked. As I alluded to elsewhere, it is like asking the men nicely if you can be allowed to vote, – “honest, we will just vote, not do anything nasty like get a woman President”. It ain’t going happen any way any how any time. Legislation is the only way to force the issue. Legislation at Federation level and by smacking corporate sponsors in the eye, that they are spending corporate marketing money in an inequitable way, on organizations that support cave-man mentality.
I don’t want to dilute any of the above, because that is the big point – the trajectory is down, only legislation will stop it. However, I would back Skip’s points that the Olympic TT example was a bit of a crazy one. I think an awful lot of the girls got it entirely wrong on the ascent and Pooley by design, and Longo by default, got the ride position for the first half entirely right, and Armstrong by strength and preparation got the whole thing right. The rest got exactly what their preparation for the course warranted and “preparation” or lack of it, brings with it nearly identical arguments as those above regarding “reward”. Why didn’t they prepare ?
Kerry, your follow up pieces do however still command a lot of hits. Only a quarter or less compared to the first post, but still that’s a lot of lurkers reading the material, but just not posting their two cents.
Anyway on this part below you said..
“In an article titled The Science of Cycling” (Faria et al, 2005), variables related to endurance performance are examined as they relate to values obtained from a variety of physiological assessments. Among elite/professional male cyclists, VO2 max, power to weight ratio (w/Kg) and peak wattage are strong predictors of performance. For women, VO2 max and w/Kg are less likely to predict success. In a 14 day stage race, VO2 max is a predictor of success among women, as it is for men.
So, what does that mean, exactly? It means that for a woman to win a major stage race comparable to the Grand Tours for men, she absolutely needs to have a high VO2 max, in addition to a high power to weight ratio and a high lactate threshold. These are the same necessary measures required for success among men. However, in terms of general performance, that same high VO2 max that is required for entry to the pro men’s peloton is not necessary for women. Why isn’t it necessary? Because the depth of talent is not the same. For a guy to be competitive, he absolutely must have a VO2 max over 70 ml/kg/min and a power to weight ratio over 5 w/Kg (as well as a high lactate threshold). The women can be successful without those physiological requirements. That doesn’t mean that they can win – it means they can compete.”
Snip..
I’ve got a good little study I did on the science of Lance about 7 or 8 pages long, and while it would be interesting to crunch some of that data and compare, which is alone the same lines as this, well at least part of it is, I will digress from that cause I don’t think I’ve got the time. However, where is Doctor Coggan when you need him? I love to hear his two cents on this, cause there was another paragraph that disturbs me just a hair, and I’m not sure women can rise to the challenge based on their genetic makeup, but I sure enjoy the fact you are throwing this stuff out there, cause at least we can see what the limits might be.
This paragraph bothers me just a little:
“But men’s cycling has evolved over time and the result is a peloton deep in physiological talent, with exceptionally high standards for competition. Women’s cycling needs to ascend to that level before it will be as competitive and entertaining for the fans as the men’s race is.”
I’m not sure if women could ever rise to this level, but certainly there is room for improvement. I think women will always be a cut below the men, but I never thought about it this way as the only way to skin a cat. Let me splain, to steal Baby’s line. When I saw the Grande Boucle 2003, yeah, I am one of few to actually have the whole race on video, quite rare and I went through hell to get it, the French robbing me blind, but I got it anyway cause I really wanted to see it. I watched it many times, read the race reports and everything I can find on the race, including I have a friend who shoot women’s races and he lives at the base of Mount Ventoux. Well, I can tell you I didn’t like what I saw.
Sure, I loved the race but when it came to the final GC, I didn’t like what I saw. No wonder races were cut to 7 or 9 stages for women. First off, I am not a proselyte of Jim Rabdau. I believe this is the guy who was the founder of the HP Challenge and wanted to make it so hard that it would rival or surpass the men’s TDF. That’s nuts! I think he wanted lots more stages and to add hellish amounts of extra climbing to the challenge. In 2003 Grande Boucle, it has like 3 or 4 mountain stages and they were killer diller! The only women who could hang on those climbs were Nicole Brandli, Fabiana Luperini and Joane Somarriba. The race was selective for the climbers, but the 17 stages sapped the peloton as well. Add to that, the length of the race in number of stages was too long and boring for the public, so the new format, like I said elsewhere is shorter faster races.
However my point is what I noticed at the end of that race is Nicole Brandi looking like a wrung out soldier, I was shocked, and the winner Joane Somarriba? Thinner then a toothpick. I was taken aback by that, and begin to think this is not so healthy for women, and perhaps unnecessary. I mean it really takes a lot to sap the princess out of NIcole Brandli cause I have never seen her look that bad. She was on the podium, but what a price to pay! I question stage races that flog women into the ground day after day for 17 days without rest. Was there a rest day? Perhaps one, I would have to check, but that just isn’t what I want to see personally as a fan or press agent.
From that time on, I changed my philosophy about what I want to see at bike races. I would rather see women finish stage races still looking like women instead of flogged inmates just released from prison. Yeah, I know they will recover, but I am not a masochist in that regard. To me sport is entertainment, and while I really love the climbers, I feel races that long are taking it to the extreme, and that’s not what I want to see women do. For the men fine, they will die for the cause, but the women, I don’t buy it. I’ll past on those flogathons. Of course, no worry anymore cause the UCI won’t sanction such a race, but I believe Toona was beyond the limits of the UCI and possibly a few others stateside here. However nowhere near as crazy as the Grande Boucle.
BTW, Pierre Boue canceled the race cause the UCI wouldn’t sanction it this year, even after it was reduced to three stages. However there is much more to this, and if you read what he said on the French article, he is really angry. Without getting stuck on this, he blames the UCI and all the fighting over the PRO tour with the Tour organization in France for the fallout that has really hurt women’s races in France and especially the Grande Boucle. In fact, he is so angry, he is going to get a lawyer and write a tell all book about all the people who hurt the Grande Boucle. However, remember since 2005, the new format for the Grande Boucle has been acceptable with only a fraction of stages compared to 2003. So yeah, I guess i am against seeing women run into the ground, and would rather prefer to see them a little more intact at the end of a stage race.
However, that’s a nice piece Kerry, if I had more time, but I would like to hear someone with more expertise expound on this like Dr Coggan.
You mentioned Longo. I spent nearly a year researching this legend, and I have friends who know their family in France. I have some rare videos and I know this rider fairly well. Longo is something akin to being from another planet.
Exibit A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cBmwjz8Vng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8uOACGjlIA
Here’s a short piece I wrote…
Jeannie Longo, an enigma, a riddle wrapped in a mystery! What makes her tick? Why does she have such longevity? Jeannie certainly is the most prolific rider ever in history winning every discipline many times over with the only exceptions being the world cup and the Giro De Feminin.
There was a time when Jeannie was bored, and quit for only one year, but quickly returned to the sport. During that time, she was elected to the Grenoble city council. She also gave back to the sport working at the French training camps and helping French hopefuls gain experience.
I know Jeannie has had some bumps over the years with the French courts over cycling gear, over team issues, riders and the public at large, but with a career that spans 30 years and thousands of races, there are bound to be a few bumps along the way. Not long ago, Jeannie was in French Velo sports magazine, and on the front cover as well. When a friend of mine tried to get a copy in his local French hometown, every store in town was sold out except one copy was left at one store! Jeannie is still popular with the French, and she is their best hope!
I’ve looked at her records, and its beyond astonishing. She is truly an enigma of the sport! This is someone who would finish one race, and then go compete in another race in the same day, and she did it all the time, a lot. She raced nearly every day, and did it for so many years, its boggles the mind. Plus she traveled a tremendous amount all over the globe, competing in all kinds of American races, and then flying back to France to compete in tons more!
She literally was dragneting the International scene competing in just about every race, big or small you could possibly imagine, not to mention beating the men all over the place in all kinds of mixed events, and her success in her MB years. To say she’s done it all is an understatement with all those track records, GC stage race wins, classics, World Championships, Olympics, and various mixed events.
After decades of racing, the press has chosen to often highlight and recollect her fallouts, confrontations and various problems instead of highlighting her brilliant accomplishments like the 8 stages she won in a row during the Colombian Tour, but most impressive to me are the huge number of final GC wins in all those tours worldwide. That marks a truly great rider, since tours usually sort out the weaknesses and strengths of riders with both flat and mountainous stages, and or course the race of truth, the ITT.
According to Jeannie’s website, she has 38 records, various world and track records. Longo has 103 Olympic and World medals, which would include it seems various other world events besides the official World championships. She has won 3 tours of France, and 13 various World championships wins. She has 30 World championship medals, and 55 national titles of France.
The only thing missing is winning the Giro De Feminin, and she never won the World Cup, although she did top the UCI rankings in 1995, 96!. The Cup thing started passed her prime, and the Giro was dominated by Canins and Luperini who she never beat in the Giro. If she had any big rivals, it was Canins, Van Moorsel and Luperini.
Comparing men and women in cycling is like comparing apples and oranges, but if its strictly by stats over such a long and colorful career, and the sheer number of wins in so many areas of the sport, its clearly Longo, not Merckx that holds the Holy Grail of Palmares. Clearly Merckx was the man for men. Longo was it for the women. If you put the stats side by side, Longo’s stats drags the floor and goes out the door, as where Merckx stats just drags the floor.
Comparing Merckx to Longo in some aspects is that he rode and dominated from the front, destroying the will of his opponents, also riding in so many races and winning a good number of them. The same can be said for Longo, she probably won more on a percentage level of the races she entered then Merckx did, but also she did it much longer, and is still doing it today. Every year Longo continues to race and win at the top level and that makes her that much greater.
In the women’s ranks, depth of talent, improvement of teams since 2000, etc, proves Longo is a great rider, and not just a myth from a lackluster era. The depth of talent back then wasn’t as deep worldwide as it is today, but no one can dismiss the fact about what kind of athlete can race nearly every day, sometimes twice a day, and win so often, and keep it up for over two decades!
The amount of training, racing, traveling, costs and support needed to do this, along with the constant levels of stress to do this globetrotting for so many years is not just admirable, but a testament to her greatness in the sport. Its a benchmark to be sure, and how stressful it is to win in both track, road and MB races which she also conquered? Think about how stressful it is for a rider to just race and win worldwide in one category like road racing, let alone Track.
Very few riders have dominated both, but none have dominated all three at the same time! Also, take in consideration how often Longo placed in the top three races worldwide, or in the top ten. That’s a pretty good benchmark of a great rider, and she has over 1019 1st place wins, so how many times did she place in the top three podium positions? To say she dominated, is putting it mildly.
I can’t help but come to the conclusion that Longo is not just a genetic marvel, but an extremely well refined dedicated professional, who prepares herself perfectly year in and year out. Since the season is so long, it’s like training and racing constantly for over two decades, and she seems to have taken extremely good care of her body, and has been both lucky enough and smart enough to stay out of crashes that could of easily ended her career many times over. To say Longo is the consummate professional doesn’t do justice, she redefines the term, and her longevity is a testament to a sport in which most women don’t last more then a decade. She is as nature is, she rides as nature! She is (Ah la Naturalle!).
Longo stats and palmares are extensive, she probably won a bigger percentage of her races, had more categories of races to compete in, and had a better depth of field to compete against then her predecessors such as Beryl Burton. Longo had the advantage to compete in stage races, not common in Burtons time, as well as worlds TT, MB events, more classics and track events, and other various events. She clearly had good rivals, which some kept her from winning the Giro and World Cup later on.
Longo lived and raced in today’s era, and clearly today’s pond or gene pool is bigger and more advanced then 30 years ago, and also consider how Merckx would of raced at 50 years old? Some have said, how would Merckx do, if we took a 25 year old Merckx and put him in today’s races? Some have said he would be only better then average or only average!
How would Merckx do today at 50 years old? How would Raymond Polidor do at 50? Well, we don’t have to put a 25 year old Longo in today’s races, but wait, we have a 50 year old Longo in today’s races, and she’s not only winning races, but dominating at the top of the pro ranks, at least often enough! Winning both the French TT and RR at 50 is astronomical in odds, and getting 4th in the TT at the Olympics behind clearly three of the top women in that event is beyond measure!
I don’t have a clue how this French phenom is riding so well at 50! Her body could of forced her to cash in her chips at 40 like Polidor, but for some reason, she’s blessed with a body that won’t quit, and still wins likes a 20 year old. This is a genuine mystery, quite incredible, because today’s top women are very good, better then any time in previous history, although I think the 90′s produced some great riders.
The women’s gene pool starting getting better about the time Longo and Canins starting peaking. So the question might be, how hard was that gene pool for Merckx as a man, as compared to Longo’s gene pool for women? I don’t know, but I can only state that historians have stated that Merckx raced in a time, which was considered a weaker era of talent and great riders. Why they say that I can only speculate, but that’s the men’s side of the sport. However its quite clear, Longo’s palmares blow away any riders palmares in all of history, but the gender equation can always leave it a very contentious subject.
The willpower and just the stress alone of competing in all those races all year long is a testament to Merckx’s greatness, but the same is applied to Longo. Even if the depth of field, and leaner field of riders in the pond which Longo competed in is true, that doesn’t erase just how stressful it is to compete in all those races day after day, and sometimes twice a day. She also won a bigger percentage of those races probably then Merckx, so that accounts for some major willpower, stamina and endurance, to say the least!
You have to win races, and even female pros at the time didn’t have it handed to them on a silver platter! Longo still had to make the big effort to win each and every race, and the amount of races she won every year, and the fact she did it for decades compared to a relatively short time that Merckx dominated, make comparing the two problematic, but Longo has stood the test of time, more then any man or women. If there ever was a genetic wonder, perhaps its Jeannie Longo.
Let’s face it, riding and winning at 50 in the top pro ranks has never been done before for either men or women. The fact that her body performs at the highest most competitive levels in pro cycling, is incredible! Longo goes beyond what we could argue, she is a mystery, an enigma to the sport, and an inspiration to the entire cycling world!
ps- Freddie is wrong about the Women’s Tour of France beginning in the 80′s. The first Women’s Tour de France was organized by Marcel Léotot and Jean leulliot in 1955. Mille Robinson was 1st from GB, June Thackerey was 2nd also from GB. Marie-Jeanne Donabedian was 3rd, from France.
Some people should get their _own_ blogs…
I Mate, but they would never be as hot as this one! Five parts on women’s cycling happens like once once in a lifetime. Granted, I’ve had more then my say, but it was fun while it lasted!
Blackbeard – did you go and watch the 2003 Boucle or obtain the TV highlights? That year I only went and saw it for 2 days, Valberg and Val d’Allos Saint Vincent. I could write a book about what the riders were telling me about those stages and the boat getting in so late from Corsica. I write that because I am not sure whether any of that background would have found its way into the TV highlights. The physical drain of those days would have been enormous. 2002 was also a very tough year.
Blackbeard, I have just caught your final paragraph. That is entirely new to me. Please tell us more about the history of the Women’s tour from 1955 through to the 80′s.
However, it more than reinforces the point I was making, you cannot have a Tour that is worthy of the title without a supportive racing infrastructure. Remember, 1955 was 3 years before a World Champs for women was introduced and then it was what, about 37 miles long! All those early World road champs were marked by niave tactics and poor race quality. Again no criticsm of the riders can be made, they just did not get the chance to ride lots of races and learn. One cannot do what one does not know about.
OK so I did my own research on the Tour Fem 1955 to 1984. So far as I can make out there was a single event with 41 competitors of whom 5 were from GB, 1 Sui & 1 Lux with the rest French. 5 days, 6 stages, 373 km, 37 finishers. The race appeared to be decided with a 25 km ITT.
nothing then ran from 1956 through to 1984.
Thank you Blackbeard for pointing out an event, about which I had no prior knowledge. However, the fact that nothing else then happened until 1984, rather double underscores my point, despite my obvious historic inaccuracy in overlooking this event. I don’t think anyone could argue that in terms of what went on in the 1980′s, the 1955 event was near irrelevant.
There exist some lovely shots of Longo and Roche on the Champs Elysee, both in yellow with the subordinate jersey winners from both sexes around them. Other shots show the pair riding the bikes, again both in yellow and both with big smiles across their faces.
Wonderful.
Sadly, over 20 years on and emancipation is a near forgotten dream. The only girls in yellow anywhere near the podium on the Champs are wearing short skirts, hold a yellow Lion and provide the obligatory kiss to the heroic conqueror for a photo-shoot, before being elbowed out of the way by the green and polka dot jersey winners. Voluntary evolution has failed. The rock is rolling back down the hill.
More lipstick, more sex, neither will not stop the slide.
Only pointing out the facts to sponsors will and the UCI introducing legislation. The UCI will only do that if Federations propose it. The ball is in our court. World Cups. 2 races, same day, or like Plouay, 1 each day at a festival.
Blackbeard:
“I would rather see women finish stage races still looking like women instead of flogged inmates just released from prison. Yeah, I know they will recover, but I am not a masochist in that regard. To me sport is entertainment, and while I really love the climbers, I feel races that long are taking it to the extreme, and that’s not what I want to see women do. For the men fine, they will die for the cause, but the women, I don’t buy it. I’ll past on those flogathons.”
I simply cannot fathom this. You are saying there should be one standard for men and another for women – based on how you like the women looking after the event? It doesn’t matter how the men look, they can do what they like, but if the women don’t look as you like them to then the race isn’t right?
Freddie..
No didn’t go there, the heat is excessive. I wouldn’t of enjoyed it very much that way. I have friends who did on many years, and it was always run in August in stifling heat. Standing around in the heat is probably worse then what the riders get on the road. No coverage of the Grande Boucle on America TV, are you kidding? However France doesn’t seem to carry much either. I have scattered random segments from French TV from over the years. I bought the video of the 2003 Grande Boucle from Velo Feminin. It was the only year I think they actually cut a professional video for marketing. However while the footage was good, there was no commentary, only live audio, which was mostly the sound of the riders talking, cars making noise, etc, but the podium part was good with audio live.
However 17 stages compressed into a one hour video leaves a little to be desired. I did hear about the boat thing, IIRC. The physical drain of 17 days of racing in August is quite incredible for women. That was my whole point really. However, those 3 or 4 mountain stages were like the men climb, same ones, and they are very long and hard. They just cut off most of the flat section for the women.
They all but cut even medium length stages out of women’s tours now, but certainly really long mountain stages like that are long gone. One of the longest last year was Monte Serra in the Giro De Feminin and that was only like less then 3 thousands feet of climbing, so the big climbs are gone now. 1998 was also a epic year when they climbed Mount Ventoux, I have that one too. Classic battle between Luperini and Pucinskaite on Mount Ventoux.
On the 1955 tour, I would have to look it up in my books. I can’t remember anymore offhand except the guy who started is Marcel Leotot, also started the first women’s world road championships when Elsy Jacobs won in 1958. He was like in his 90′s a few years ago, don’t know if he is still alive. A friend of mine bought his archives which also included the actual world championship jersey Elsy Jacobs wore for winning. He has the jersey in his office now.
Between 1958 and 1980 is somewhat of a dark period. It’s dark because what little photos and reports written are tucked away in the private closets and archives of various fans worldwide who mostly are either dead or very old today. I have seen some stuff and I have friends who have some stuff, but it’s very THIN. We just don’t know except for the race winners, the cities, etc, but not a lot more. We do know who some of the better riders were for Road and Track, but we don’t know much really about them really.
The few books that do exist like for instance the book on Yvonne Reynders is in Dutch I believe. However, it was not till the 80′s that the resurgence and better pool of riders came with Longo and Canins, and also during Burton’s time there were no international stage races or classics. Burton career was mostly all national victories except for track and the world championships. Stuff did happen between 1955 and 1980, but it was pretty thin worldwide and takes considerable research to dig it out.
Video: Yvonne Reynders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIaoM_4wxD0
If you can read several languages, there are a few books out there on some of these women. I don’t even know of a single book on Beryl Burton, although it’s rumored someone is trying to write one.
Video: Beryl Burton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PthPcvc3ziM
The problem with the Women’s Tour of France is after 1955, Marcel could not find enough sponsors willing to support the race. Sound familiar? So it did not restart again until 1984 with an America winner Mary Ann Martin. The reason it died, well according to Boue, the founder, he said that the UCI killed it, but there is much more to this story. Lot of nasty stuff going on in France. However it’s true that women’s pro teams and their part of the culture is really suffering in France, according to someone I know who lives there and knows a lot of the French riders. Jeanne Longo and her longtime husband are no longer together, and I have heard he has taken up with the French rider, Edwige Pitel. How’s that for a shocker? Few more bits of trivia. You probably didn’t know that canceled Etrusca was run by Silvia Parietti parents. Also Modesta’s parents run the Ronde Van Drenthe, IIAC. Small world, huh?
Skip,
If you haven’t seen these races in the past, then you don’t know. I also have friends who have been to these excessively long races, and BTW, you can take it up with the UCI as well if it really bothers you. I speak from my personal perspective as a fan and photojournalist.
However, Let me spell it out for you again. Yes, extremely long stage races for women as the founder of the HP challenge wanted to do is nuts, IMO. As you know even the elite tour riders are sorted out in the TDF, and a smaller field at the end. It’s not an unknown fact that riders did drugs for years, steriods and EPO just to finish the tour and finish higher on the GC. The idea that women, which have less stamina and endurance then men do, produce less watts, etc, etc, in general should be subjected to these marathon stage races is just crazy, IMO.
The fact is both the women’s Giro and women’s TDF cut their stages way, way back for two reasons. One, the races were too long and too grueling. Two, the UCI wouldn’t santion them. Why do you think the UCI doesn’t santion long stage races today? During the August heat of the summer, one tour in which Linda Jackson was in, they staged a protest about the stages being too hot and long. All the girls followed Jackson’s lead and protested by not starting the race until the race organziers talked with them, and they finally did start the stage. The women said the heat was excessive and with a long stage race like that in august (Dead of summer heat), it’s just becomes too much for some riders. Based on what I have seen over the years, I don’t endorse Jim Rabdau philosophy about making races like that even longer and harder for women by adding another 20-30,000 feet of climbing and extending to to 21 stages like the men. Yeah, that’s right, I don’t believe in it.
During the 1998 Tour De Feminin, the race became all about water, perhaps the hottest day in the history of women’s racing. Super-Besse was a pretty moderate pace in temps of 115 degrees. Riders in desperate straits making their way up the mountains yelling for water. It became a day about water more then cycling with team mates delivering as much as six bottles adding as much as 30 pounds with their jerseys pockets full, plus their cages.
Some of the hardest days in the mountains occured in Italy. Stage 11 of the 1998 Giro De Feminin, Longarone to Tambre encountered three challenges. The first at Pieve d’Alpago (676m – 2000 ft), after 32 km, the second at St. Anna Pai (km 51,5 at 1044m – 3100ft) and third, the toughest, Broz, two km from the finish at Tambre (965m -2900 ft). The climb to Broz is described as the most difficult ever encountered in women’s cycling, comparable to the Mortirolo, even though it is seven km shorter than the most famous peak in the Men’s Giro. It rises 565m (1695 ft) in seven km.
The idea of harder, yet harder and harder stage races for women begs the question about what the limits should be. Personally I don’t believe in these extreme races. In Death Valley, they run the Death Valley Badwater Ultra-Marathon, known as the hardest 48 hours in sports. I don’t believe in that kind of torture either.
My issue is not with imposing limits on races for health and safety reasons, that is a perfectly valid argument. Read what I wrote again, I’m asking why it’s fine to have events like that for the men (“For the men fine, they will die for the cause”) but not for women.
The 2003 race was every sporting writers fantasy – a wonder scoop not covered by the mainstream. A journalist, or broadcaster could have made an iconic program that would have been burnt into sport mythology. Heroic struggle against a fierce backdrop of the course made nearly impossible by elemental forces. [I spent the time when no action was on, calling back to the UK and trying to encourage some production companies and journalists to get over, but they had some library books to renew or laundry chits to exchange.]
Boue was trying to do too much with too little and rightly hoping that events would take place that would capture the imagination and draw in the press and move the race forward. All that came off and the fantastic events of the moment were just not reported. As an epic struggle it outshone anything of the men’s Tour that year and garnered about one zillionth of the coverage as a consequence.
Boue was casting around for new dramatic locations trying to do something to generate new interest. A start and 2 days in Corsica. Sun, sea, costal road sprint finishes. Holiday crowds to be diverted. All beautiful. To be followed by a boat transfer to Nice and then straight into the Alps with a lovely ski resort finish at Valberg. Next day up the oh so beautiful and photogenic Col d’Allos, drop into the wonderful and historic mountain town of Barcelonnette [imagine water fountain in town square, sign on the wall “Les Grande Cols” Bonnette – ouvert, Cayolle – ouvert, Allos ouvert, Vars, ouvert, Larche –ouvert”. These are all hor’s categorie climbs with the Bonnette being the highest road in Europe, thanks to some frantic extra road laying by the French in the 1950’s. Out of Barcelonnette, onto Jausiers, more village fountains, and mountain backdrops. Then up the Vars, again desperately photogenic and terrific spots for stationary cameras to get pictures of colored ants on the foot of the Col still over 40 minutes from arriving.. Drop off the Vars and then race down the valley before another mountain climb to the ski station of St Vincent. And that was just the first 4 days. I cannot remember the final day. Start Versailles and finish in a grand park in Paris ? Or was this the year Boue finally was given access to the Champs Elysee ?
The first two days went to plan. Final stage in Corsica finished at St Florent and then the 12 mile road trip to Bastia to get on the Ferry for the 3 hour crossing to Nice. Meet guides waiting at Nice and then into hotels and up the next day. A cracking plan.
Only the weather was foul with crazy wild storms, thunder and lightning.
The boat was delayed and then delayed and then delayed some more. It eventually left well after midnight, but the weather made the crossing a nightmare and slow. Sea-sickness, zero sleep and an arrival at around 4am. But then where were the hotel guides to take the teams to their hotels? [Remember this is pre GPS routing}. Teams headed off to hotels, found a hotel that was expecting a team from the tour Fem and just booked in, regardless of whether they were meant to be there or not. Result, Riders sleeping in lounges, other still roaming the town until 8am having been up all night. Some hotels with too many riders, others none.
The day’s ski station stage finish should have happened at about 4.45pm. At 1pm Boue’s team were erecting the barricades, setting up the sound system and drumming up interest at Valberg. They deserved a medal. They were polite to everyone who came near for a chat and kept everyone informed as best they could. The local police started to close off the roads and the Gendarmerie arrived and gave their usual outstanding support for the race, in a manner I have not witnessed anywhere else in the World.
The start was delayed until 2pm, to give the girls chance to get some rest and recover - slightly. After all this was going to be a big day and could well see the GC shaken into its main shape for the race.
And that is precisely what happened. My wife and I were some 5 km from the finish.
In the afternoon it was sunny and very, very hot after the storms of the night before. Then as dusk approached the clouds started building and the lightning and thunder started again. We saw the headlights of the leading cars and motorbikes glow in the ever darkening gloom, down the valley well before we saw a group of riders, tiny in size straining behind them. Into tunnels and out of tunnels. Set at the bottom of a panoramic vista, shouldered by vast mountains on each side, illuminated by flashes seemingly sent from the gods, the sight was nearly impossible. The leaders came past us with Joane preparing for her final attack. Judith led the next group riding a very hard tempo, trying to limit their losses. We had heard them before we saw them. They were not talking. Their bikes were silent. Air being sucked in and blown out presaged their arrival. The others came through in various states. Some cheery, riding within themselves, aware of the days ahead. Others wild-eyed, nervously asking how far to the finish and the nature of the road ahead. What was this Tiger like at the other end of this tail they were grasping? Others came by with torn jerseys and blood down their legs. The rains had not arrived at the ski station yet, but obviously the peloton had already encountered rain in the valleys below. Everyone was agog. The policeman nearby had been on duty holding back the oh so patient traffic since 3.30pm that afternoon. No complaints, only admiration and respect from all who watched. Respect that was unqualified.
It became darker and the lightning got worse. Each group or even individual rider, had a Gendarme outrider. [ Just now I cannot bring up the results for that stage, but my guess is that the tail end riders were around 1 hour down.] A big break in the trickle of riders passing by. Nothing. A car was going down the mountain – slowly. The Gendarme and his straining charges came round the corner. The Gendarme drove straight at the car, which immediately pulled onto the rocky verge and bounced and scrapped to a shuddering halt. A one sided barrage of abuse, the Gendarme gesticulated at the girls straining by. The rasping of the air passing in and out of their lungs was audible to all witnessing the drama. That driver was going to remember that moment for the rest of his life. Another flash of lighting and it started to rain. At the top the bouquets had long since been awarded and photographs taken.
One feature of a ski-station finish is a lack of roads. The stage was due to finish at 5pm, with a trip down the valley, head north, then take a left over a very poor road over the Col du Champs (2045m) before dropping down to the valley based ski station of d’Allos to overnight before the stage start the next day. Admittedly we had daylight and were not pressing hard, my wife and I had taken 1 hour 45 to do this journey earlier that day. However, as the race was still coming up the mountain to Valberg, obviously nothing could set off down the mountain to d’Allos, to a shower, meal and warmth, massage and bed. The riders jumped wet into team busses at the top and waited and then waited. Some girls had obviously suffered in earlier crashes and progress up the mountain to Valberg was painful and slow. The words shouts and waves of our little group would do nothing to help turn the pedals, but I hope the girls could understand that whilst the sporting media ignored their epic performance, those present appreciated what they were witnessing.
We travelled to Barcelonnette over the Cayolle 2326. The road had become a river in places. Rocks were sliding down the mountain, pushed onto the road by rain. Progress with headlights and widly whirling wipers having to pick out heavy objects, that could inflict a lot of damage, was very slow.
The next day, the traffic in Barcelonnette was static. “Ferme” now hung where “ouvert” normally did. We left our car and jumped on our bikes to ride up the Vars to watch the race there. We found out the reason for the near static traffic. On several places the storms had placed an avalanche of rocks across the road. I have not seen the like ever before or since. Bulldozers were trying to clear a path through and traffic was being allowed through in each direction, at times. My wife and I picked our way over the boulders with our bikes on our shoulders, with the bulldozers working alongside.
Today the rains came earlier than yesterday and whilst my wife and I were able to get to the summit of the Vars and take some shots in fantastic hot sunshine, it was raining when the race was due.
We had been very late back the night before, many hours after we intended. I have no idea what time, for a second night the last team-busses found their hotels. What time did the girls eat ? Did nayone get a massage ?Well the riders were scheduled to eat evening meal at their hotels, after arrival. At 8pm most busses were starting to picktheir way down from Valberg in a thunder storm.
We saw no race. The riders did a roll out of d’Allos for the cameras and about 6km up the valley road, before being shoved back in the team wagons. They had to drive a detour around the road blockage so that they came at St Vincent from the other end of the valley and not via the Vars. This involved a 130km detour along another valley. There was no way of closing roads through towns not expecting a race. The stage was shortened down to just 35km. There was a near mutiny at the start with some riders chanting “hotel – hotel”. Apparently some of the spectators booed the girls on the Col d’Allos when they saw them being driven by. Those of us on the Vars who had managed to get over the road blocks and were stood in torrential rain, illuminated by lightning, all had only admiration for what we could not see . All I heard was praise and wonderment for what we knew had gone on. Descending the Vars, where the road was in places a rubble strewn river was a challenge. I hit a rock and blew an inner tube. Race down it ?
The race to the top of St Vincent was led by Luperini, desperate to recover some of the time lost the day before. Judith Arndt – 2, 32 back in 6th place is eloquent witness.
Sadly, the personal schedule of my wife and myself did not allow us to follow the race further.
My point is that had any of that lot been going on for Lance and the men it would all have been over the World’s media. L’Equipe gave the race some desultory and condescending mention the next day headed with something like “Women’s tour stage cut to 35km” and a verbalization of the stage results. No mention of the reason why.
“Yeah, those women, they just don’t have a clue what proper racing is about. 35km – Those girls just don’t know the half of it do they. And then they wonder why the sponsors walk away. Not proper racing is it”.
Boue had done his job. He had laid on the works. Brave towns and the Gendarmerie and Police had supported the venture. Nature had added a dramatic twist and now all the media had to do was give it a fair call and the Boucle, and with it women’s cycling would be projected to the next level.
After holding up traffic in your ski station community for 6 hours and doing an awful lot to promote a race which got near to zero coverage – would you do it next year ?
And that folks is one of the reasons why the Boucle of 2004 did not take place and was basically the last grande tour Boue did.
Some say Boue has a persecution complex. Others might say that complex is entirely justified.
Maybe I am entirely wrong to suggest the sporting media is, regardless of intent, entirely misogynistic. I made my mind up on what I witnessed. Perhaps I am entirely unfair and have a bad attitude. My wife and I were related to nobody riding the race. My wife and I had no commercial involvement with Boue or any other part of the race organization, or any direct link with anyone participating in or connected with the race. My wife and I were just your everyday cycling fan Jo’s turning up to watch something we knew would be good during our holiday in France. We have seen the men’s tour but frankly, that pharmaceutical circus won’t miss our patronage.
Gee, I wish I could get in and edit some of my typos. I just get so worked up getting it all down in a hurry. Now I read it and blush !
Kerry can we do this ? Thanks Kerry for starting and hosting this debate. I hope somewhere some female marketing executive reads this and takes note, or some sports editor reads this and has a re-think.
Freddy
I can’t let you in to edit typos but if I can edit them for you. If you send me an email indicating which comments on which post you want edited,(send me the correct version) I can go back in and fix them.
Freddy,
Nice write up, I know it’s a bit like a novel, but I am glad Kerry posted that for us. I enjoyed reading it very much, while others probably won’t. I would say that remember 2004 was an Olympic year and part of the reason the Grande Boucle did no happen. It was too close to the Olympics. However, I would like to respond perhaps some other time, maybe tomorrow or some time. I got a lot of work to do today including making a lot of Tacos for dinners!
Thanks,
Blackbeard
My aim was to make it more evocative of the moment because it is a story that has never been told. In terms of dramaticisms it was stupendous, and the fact that sporting journalists shunned it, is a reflection of their abilities rather that the spectacle provided by either the organisers or the girls. I am no journalist but if I can make it dramatic surely somebody paid to do the job could have done wonders. I guess none of the above came across in the footage you bought.
I did a bit of research as I was writing and came across a diary report by the rider Helen Kelly. In her diary of the day she reports that the day after the Vars, they looked in the paper to find out about the road blockages. It was not reported so they thought it was some sort of spoof by either the organiser or others out to get the organiser! A double negative courtesy of…..
“Olympic year” had very little to do with the reason the race did not go ahead in 2004, so I was told. Publicity is the oxygen. Starved of publicity – no life. The 2005 race was a very different affair. However perhaps we will find out more when Mr Boues book comes out.
http://www.helenkelly.com.au/racereports/tdf03.html
Beryl’s autobiography is in print again.http://cyclingweekly.ipcshop.co.uk/shop/books/personal-best—the-autobiography-of-beryl-burton. Again, she makes complaints that ring in our ears as relevant today. The web story from the same journal on Nicole Cooke’s plight, post Skyter, is somewhat shortened from that which appeared in the hard copy. Hard Copy states that Cooke is not on a wage but will ride for Team GB Sky. I guess that brings down the average wage for the top riders even more. And if she wins, well it will do Sky no harm.
My tacos are done, but I have to do some running around still. Quickly again, Pierre Boue said another reason he canceled the tour is because of a lack of publicity. Well, I have a friend that was offered to be the official press agent for the tour, since he did it in previous years. However he turned it down cause he wanted to do the Aude, and also he wanted to do some Italian races. Well, then I believe the job was offered to another friend of mine who also is the offical press agent of many women’s classics. Well guess what, he turned it down too since he had interest in other races as well. Those two guys were about as big as it gets in this business of women’s cycling for photographers anyway, one does race reports too, cause i know who the top guys are in this business. Well, when the Grande Boucle couldn’t secure a official photographer, I guess it must of become a real mess, already cut down to three stages. I don’t know what happened in the end over there last year, but I can tell you with the UCI ongoing war with the Tour organizers, that the fallout in France must of been too much for the Grande Boucle according to Boue. His tell all book should give a few clues.
However on the 2003 race, the three hard mountain stages were covered somewhat, very nice. Also some great shots of Olga Zabelinskaya on the bike before she retired. I love that tall Russian rider! After the mountains, the rest of the video was the flat stages mostly, and not too entertaining, although the podiums were good. Also Pierre Boue published a book on the tour already many years ago. I have that book, very well done with nice photos and stats in the back. I would actually have to watch the 2003 video again and read the race reports to refresh my memory, but it was the last great tour for epic battles in the mountains with Luperini, Brandi and Somarriba. While I loved the mountains climbs and the climbers, I just thought the tour was too long based on the reasons I stated before, but otherwise the first five stages were awesome to watch!